In this episode of What’s Kraken, host Jim Phoenix sits down with horror author Edward J. Cembal to dive deep into his creative process, the inspiration behind his acclaimed novel “Monsters in Our Shadows,” and his plans for future dark and macabre tales. Cembal shares insights on the importance of reading, the role of editors, and the challenges of balancing genre conventions with personal artistic vision. This captivating discussion offers a glimpse into the mind of a rising star in the horror fiction genre.

You can buy Cembal’s book here. (Note Amazon Affiliate Link)

Transcript of the Edward J Cembal interview

00:26.59
Jim Phoenix
Hey everyone, Jim Phoenix here, and today we’ve got a very special guest. We’ve got the author of Monsters in Our Shadows, live on Amazon. Go get it. Edward J. Cembal today. Edward, how are you doing?

00:39.78
Edward J Cembal
I’m good, how you doing?

00:41.07
Jim Phoenix
I am fantastic, thank you for asking. Now, I have to say, your book was highly recommended to me by someone I do pay attention to, and I’ve read it, which might be a first for this show, but I’ve read it and I loved it. I loved it, so we’ve got some questions about the book, some questions about writing and stuff like that, but my very first question is, why the cover?

01:08.00
Edward J Cembal
Well, I appreciate you reading it and falling in love with it.

01:10.99
Jim Phoenix
Hey.

01:11.84
Edward J Cembal
That’s huge. That’s kind of ah everything.

01:14.03
Jim Phoenix
Yay.

01:14.07
Edward J Cembal
So I think I’m i’m done here. But the the cover was, I just sent it to a cover artist whose name escapes me, but I’ll remember it shortly.

01:26.96
Edward J Cembal
ah He’s fantastic. And he read the book and then he came up with a cover and sent it to me. And there was no revisions, no changes, no input on my end, nothing.

01:31.44
Jim Phoenix
Really? that That is amazing.

01:36.21
Edward J Cembal
It was just his interpretation of it and he put it out. I sent it to him with the book and then, yeah, he sent that back.

01:44.12
Jim Phoenix
It’s amazing, if if if anyone didn’t see The Monsters in Our Shadows yet, the book cover reminds me of like the old raw shot block test. you know What do you see, what do you see, what do you see? And then when you look at it differently, you can kind of see, although this might be the whole issue, you start seeing faces, you start seeing like eyes, you start seeing things coming at you. And i think I think it really does a lot to,

02:12.06
Jim Phoenix
maintain the imagination of what spoiler, there’s monsters in this book, ah what monsters or the shivers could be. And it kind of like maintains the imagination.

02:22.44
Jim Phoenix
So you don’t have to tell the reader exactly what they’re going to look like. Bam. It’s like this for always and never. It’s going to be more of a, it’s probably like this. It could be like this.

02:32.89
Jim Phoenix
Your imagination can still run with it. So that’s pretty cool. You did that by giving him the book saying you draw this. That’s that’s amazing.

02:39.48
Edward J Cembal
Yeah, I think he absolutely nailed it because, uh, while there is like the mental health edge in the, in the book, uh, there’s also the, uh, conversation around the everyone’s, uh, monsters, uh, look very different.

02:41.98
Jim Phoenix
Yeah.

02:51.36
Jim Phoenix
Yeah.

02:53.45
Edward J Cembal
You know, the, the thing that you’re battling with every day is different than the thing that I’m battling with every day. But I think the, uh, adversity in general is something that we all share. And that’s kind of what the book is about with the monsters or the shivers represent.

03:06.39
Edward J Cembal
So he nailed it.

03:06.45
Jim Phoenix
Yeah, that’s right. Some of us might be Chicago bear fans. Some of us might be liquor fans, but we’re all, oh wait, that’s just, this is me.

03:10.70
Edward J Cembal
Exactly. Yeah, or lead fans.

03:14.16
Jim Phoenix
le Yay for making me feel better.

03:15.79
Edward J Cembal
I’m sorry.

03:17.33
Jim Phoenix
but Okay.

03:17.47
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

03:17.91
Jim Phoenix
I don’t room for the Leafs at least. That’s good.

03:19.82
Edward J Cembal
Yeah, you’re Montreal, right?

03:21.89
Jim Phoenix
Uh, Montreal, it means I’m Black Hawks and Knights. I’m a transplant.

03:25.66
Edward J Cembal
Right, right, right.

03:26.31
Jim Phoenix
Yeah. I couldn’t vote for the Canadians. I just lost all my Montreal and Ottawa listeners right now.

03:30.43
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

03:33.67
Jim Phoenix
Ottawa senators, nevermind up to Toronto once.

03:34.44
Edward J Cembal
There you go.

03:36.51
Jim Phoenix
All right, so some monsters are, you know, monsters of the ice, I guess. And I will say this is dystopian fiction.

03:49.27
Jim Phoenix
But.

03:49.40
Edward J Cembal
Yeah, I mean, I will say that it was meant to be, ah I didn’t write it for genre, um for better or worse.

03:56.50
Jim Phoenix
Right.

03:57.64
Edward J Cembal
I just kind of wrote it as a cathartic experience. And it so happened that it has a bit of a dystopian angle in terms of setting, but it is, I would say, more of a horror or a speculative fiction adventure.

04:11.28
Edward J Cembal
I’m not really sure how I would genre it, but what do you what would you go at there?

04:13.03
Jim Phoenix
Yeah.

04:15.90
Jim Phoenix
That’s, that’s the thing. I was reading this book. I can see how it is dystopian because, you know, it was the MST three K not to so different feature, right?

04:26.99
Jim Phoenix
But it’s more beyond that.

04:27.10
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

04:30.18
Jim Phoenix
If you take it out of the time, it could happen. It. anytime. This could be the past. This could be like now. It’s not necessarily a dystopian future.

04:38.87
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

04:40.28
Jim Phoenix
It could be more of a, what would you do? It’s it’s not body horror, but it’s more of a psychological, like almost a gothic horror.

04:50.07
Edward J Cembal
yeah

04:50.30
Jim Phoenix
Like that the monsters that, you know, are are feeding off of people. This is not giving away any major plot twists. We’re not going to spoil the book for you.

04:57.48
Edward J Cembal
no no

04:58.02
Jim Phoenix
This is basically from, you know, humanity has been devoured by the edge of the extinction by shivers, nightmares, creatures with an insatiable hunger bound to torment their hosts until they finally feed.

04:58.64
Edward J Cembal
yeah

05:08.11
Jim Phoenix
That can happen. If you close your eyes, that’s like, oh, that could be capitalism, by the way. You know, it could be, we just had Black Friday, a summer Monday.

05:15.60
Edward J Cembal
There’s a lot of that.

05:16.69
Jim Phoenix
Yeah. Like it could be anything from there.

05:16.96
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

05:18.25
Jim Phoenix
It could be like an allegory for something like that. Or it really could just be the they dark, dark version of our world. You know, the things that we don’t talk about.

05:27.12
Edward J Cembal
Yeah, I mean, in in a way it’s happening right now, right? The things that are happening in the book, there is a monster around your back right now that is doing something.

05:32.71
Jim Phoenix
Yeah.

05:35.52
Edward J Cembal
And it’s up to you to fight it or or let it consume you or, you know, so on and so forth. But I just thought that this crumbling city, ah when the rest of the world’s been kind of devoured to desert edge of extinction, like you said, was kind of just an interesting place to play because I can get rid of the typical rules of society and kind of just play to the core of the theme.

05:48.12
Jim Phoenix
Yeah.

05:56.16
Jim Phoenix
Well, I, I liked that. It also gives a bit of a monster in the house because part of the book is like, you just don’t leave the city.

06:00.41
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

06:03.81
Jim Phoenix
If you do really bad things happen.

06:06.22
Edward J Cembal
Right.

06:07.03
Jim Phoenix
And I was like, and traps you in.

06:07.44
Edward J Cembal
I like that monster in the house. Yeah, it is very much like that, isn’t it?

06:11.58
Jim Phoenix
And then as, as we read, we we see there’s an exile list, which I did. Where’d you get the name exile? It’s a pretty cool term, by the way. Where’d you get, what’d you think that went up?

06:20.69
Edward J Cembal
Oh, I wish I could tell you where the ideas came from.

06:21.94
Jim Phoenix
Exile list.

06:25.96
Jim Phoenix
It just popped in.

06:26.14
Edward J Cembal
um I’m not sure. They probably popped in. It might have had something to do with, uh, the exorcist and then playing off the idea that he is exiling people.

06:34.18
Jim Phoenix
Oh, baby.

06:36.58
Edward J Cembal
So the exilist, I don’t think it’s far from that.

06:37.74
Jim Phoenix
Oh, I love it.

06:39.40
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

06:39.62
Jim Phoenix
No, I love that. So I was like, Oh, this is really cool. And it is kind of like, you know, reminds you of like The Exorcist and there’s a bad thing reminded of an anthem.

06:48.14
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

06:48.40
Jim Phoenix
Okay. I cannot name characters to save anyone’s life. How’d you get anthem?

06:56.53
Edward J Cembal
Oh, that’s another one. the The book I’m writing right now, I’m struggling to find a better name. So I agree with you, it’s a great name. ah Don’t know where it came from. the I think the the concept was that he’s This is me pretending that I know what I’m talking about.

07:15.74
Edward J Cembal
ah He’s kind of an anthem for everybody facing the same things that he’s facing. So he’s meant to be, you know, not a white knight.

07:20.23
Jim Phoenix
Cool.

07:22.87
Edward J Cembal
He’s meant to be like very much an anthem for, again, the theme. um But yeah, the and anthem was, it just it just fit. It just kind of clicked and it was him.

07:34.90
Jim Phoenix
i I like it.

07:35.74
Edward J Cembal
The first time I think a character came out with the the name started before like the character.

07:36.66
Jim Phoenix
Yeah.

07:41.23
Jim Phoenix
Really.

07:41.61
Edward J Cembal
Usually the character comes and then the name kind of fits in or changes and then fits into what the character ends up being.

07:43.40
Jim Phoenix
The name. Yeah.

07:49.48
Edward J Cembal
I often rename characters, but and this in this, most most things were kind of set and and forget it like melody.

07:49.66
Jim Phoenix
Yeah. Oh, yep, me too.

07:56.57
Edward J Cembal
I love that name.

07:59.51
Edward J Cembal
And they all kind of seem to have their own allegory and and metaphor as they went along.

08:03.26
Jim Phoenix
Right. No, I agree. It is a, as a reader, I think the name really does fit and be as a writer.

08:15.12
Jim Phoenix
I am glad I’m not the only one that goes, okay, your name today is John.

08:20.98
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

08:21.07
Jim Phoenix
Ah, John in the field. Hold on, that’s a bad name. I haven’t named him John. What the hell was I thinking of?

08:25.17
Edward J Cembal
Yeah, exactly.

08:26.16
Jim Phoenix
It’s actually this one now, yeah.

08:29.04
Edward J Cembal
Yeah, I’ve got a character right now that’s gone through three iterations of names and I swear every time I sit down it changes. So this draft, his name is three different names.

08:37.77
Jim Phoenix
Do you, when you, Correct the name. This is getting back into the, a little bit into the craft. When you correct the name, are you doing a fine replace? Or are you like really just going, Oh, damn it.

08:49.71
Jim Phoenix
I now have to really go one by one by one and making sure I changed guys name.

08:55.18
Edward J Cembal
I usually do like ah ah the next pass on the draft. So if someone’s name, for example, like is John and then I find out that they’re really like a Samuel, then their name will be Samuel for the rest of the draft until their name changes to Oliver.

08:58.31
Jim Phoenix
Okay.

09:04.59
Jim Phoenix
Right.

09:08.76
Jim Phoenix
right

09:08.88
Edward J Cembal
And then when I get to the draft three, I’ll go back and I’ll remember, oh yeah, that’s you know it’s not Samuel or John anymore, it’s Oliver. And I’ll do a pass that way.

09:16.10
Jim Phoenix
Oh, so you do it while you’re editing draft by draft.

09:19.25
Edward J Cembal
Yeah. Yeah. So I try not to go back as much as I can because I have a bad habit of getting stuck on like a chapter or the first 20 pages or a certain scene. And I can go through and edit that to death.

09:30.89
Edward J Cembal
So I really try to steamroll ahead and capture my next draft because when you guys, you know, when you get to the end of a book or, you know, three scenes later, you realize that, you know, that original scene that you’re working on before has changed regardless because those characters have changed.

09:44.14
Jim Phoenix
Yeah.

09:44.87
Edward J Cembal
The situation could have changed. Some things have come to light or some things don’t work.

09:46.51
Jim Phoenix
Yeah.

09:49.23
Edward J Cembal
So I do try to kind of steamroll ahead.

09:49.61
Jim Phoenix
Yeah. Absolutely. Now that that’s kind of it. And sometimes with the end of the book, you’re like, well, that’s not where the book starts anymore. I guess I have to throw those chapters out.

09:59.33
Edward J Cembal
well

10:00.11
Jim Phoenix
I don’t know what the I was thinking of.

10:00.60
Edward J Cembal
Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

10:02.79
Jim Phoenix
as Yeah.

10:02.82
Edward J Cembal
Killing your darlings. How do you kill your darlings?

10:04.38
Jim Phoenix
Yeah. It was like cyanide, I think it’s a sometimes i I because we’re now writing it now, man, I’m old.

10:08.99
Edward J Cembal
That works.

10:14.94
Jim Phoenix
We are writing in the event of the, not in the event anymore, we’re just doing it in the age of, or processing, where I will, if I really like the line, if I really, I have to convince really convince myself I really like this line, or I really like that chapter plot, I will put it into a cut file, like a little folder on my desktop.

10:20.96
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

10:32.01
Edward J Cembal
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

10:38.58
Jim Phoenix
And that way maybe a short story comes from it later on. Usually I’ll go through it once. Never. it It’s like a drug drawer basically at this point, but do you just like, are you hardcore?

10:45.58
Edward J Cembal
Yeah. You’re safe. Yeah.

10:49.96
Jim Phoenix
Like, ah, screw it dead.

10:52.75
Edward J Cembal
Uh, no, I actually, I have something similar. So I do have a ah working file, um, and I’ve titled it, uh, darlings grave.

10:55.11
Jim Phoenix
Yeah.

11:00.23
Jim Phoenix
Yeah.

11:00.66
Edward J Cembal
So I just, I shove, I just dig graves for my darlings, kill them and and throw them in there with the intention that I’ll probably go back and use them with the reality that I never do.

11:04.11
Jim Phoenix
ah

11:07.19
Jim Phoenix
the intention. Yes, that’s exactly it.

11:10.83
Edward J Cembal
Never.

11:11.78
Jim Phoenix
It’s the intention of nothing you made can be that bad.

11:11.99
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

11:15.39
Jim Phoenix
It just didn’t work this time.

11:17.04
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

11:17.10
Jim Phoenix
And then you’re like, yeah.

11:17.28
Edward J Cembal
Have you read the Stephen King on writing?

11:19.81
Jim Phoenix
Yes, I love that book.

11:21.39
Edward J Cembal
I love it too. So he’s got this great chapter where he talks about killing your darlings. And the whole idea is like, if you think that line is good, it better be good because the next line after it better be good.

11:32.18
Edward J Cembal
All of your lines better be good.

11:33.09
Jim Phoenix
Better be good.

11:34.19
Edward J Cembal
The fact that it’s good isn’t good enough, but for a reason to keep it in, which, you know, easy for him to say maybe, but yeah.

11:37.67
Jim Phoenix
Right. Oh, that’s right.

11:42.58
Jim Phoenix
Oh, but that’s, that does bring up a, that’s Brian line. I think that’s correct. Like, you know, like all the signs crap. I’m going to keep it in. No, nothing like that.

11:50.10
Edward J Cembal
yeah exactly

11:52.81
Jim Phoenix
His way of editing helped me a lot.

11:53.08
Edward J Cembal
yeah

11:55.25
Jim Phoenix
And I, this is the same way I teach now. If you try to edit something I’ve, okay. I know Jack Vernon does edit a different way. Jack’s a historical fictionist.

12:06.81
Jim Phoenix
He will, or it might be underneath John Vernon now. He will write a chapter one day and then back up two or three pages of that chapter and start from there to edit a bit and then keep writing the next chapter.

12:12.19
Edward J Cembal
Yeah, exactly.

12:22.21
Jim Phoenix
I i don’t work that way. I have to do the throw it all up and blip, blip it all at once. And once we do that, I have to put it in the freezer.

12:36.28
Jim Phoenix
Like I have to put it in the freezer and just, you know, not so much never see it again.

12:36.48
Edward J Cembal
Oh like that

12:44.25
Jim Phoenix
Just never see it for like six months before I could add it.

12:48.39
Jim Phoenix
Are you somewhat similar?

12:51.32
Edward J Cembal
um Yeah, I’m trying to think of a teacher that I had. a

12:58.98
Jim Phoenix
If it’s Jack Vernon, it’d be funny.

12:59.49
Edward J Cembal
I can’t remember, I pair both names. Yeah, let’s let’s call it that.

13:03.20
Jim Phoenix
we We both had Jack for a teacher, nice.

13:04.03
Edward J Cembal
It’s the same kind of idea where it’s like you go ah you go back a chapter and you edit that and then continue writing the next day from where you started yesterday.

13:09.58
Jim Phoenix
God.

13:14.49
Edward J Cembal
So you start with editing what you wrote yesterday and then you you move in.

13:16.61
Jim Phoenix
Yeah.

13:18.45
Edward J Cembal
I find that I i just will stay on what I was writing yesterday because you can, add as you know, you can edit forever.

13:24.04
Jim Phoenix
Yeah, that’s kind of it.

13:24.43
Edward J Cembal
I think putting in the freezer is kind of the kind of the best thing you can do.

13:29.17
Jim Phoenix
Absolutely. And speaking of freezers, how long did it take you from start of the idea to book launch for this book?

13:38.94
Edward J Cembal
Yeah, I mean, it’s a, I mean, for this book specifically, there was a book before it that I that I’d buried. I thought it was great, it wasn’t big enough for that.

13:47.74
Jim Phoenix
Don’t worry.

13:47.83
Edward J Cembal
But there’s another grave where there’s where this this book lives. um And I actually picked up some of my, like my editor from there and stuff as well. So there’s some help on that.

14:00.03
Edward J Cembal
So when I started Monsters, it kind of snowballed quickly, but it still took about three and a half years. I looked at this the other day and quite a few drafts.

14:11.30
Jim Phoenix
That’s good though.

14:11.60
Edward J Cembal
And then, yeah, I really like obsessed over it and like and lived it. And again, like it was a cathartic experience.

14:17.15
Jim Phoenix
yeah

14:18.75
Edward J Cembal
We talked about a couple of things that I was dealing with at the time. And yeah, I kind of had to write. So I was fortunate enough, I guess, that ah it it It really was, you know, medicine writing like this and and getting it on the page and then kind of like putting it all together and, you know, obsessing over, you know, story by the key and all that kind of stuff kind of helped keep it tight.

14:38.99
Jim Phoenix
Yeah.

14:44.29
Edward J Cembal
You know, um, yeah, about, I’d say about three, three and a half years, probably from, on page, page one.

14:49.76
Jim Phoenix
That’s that’s pretty that’s actually pretty tight. I mean, I’ve seen people I won’t mention their names. Yeah, myself, maybe ah like 10 years ago.

14:58.11
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

14:59.16
Jim Phoenix
Yeah, it’s like a night move this way.

14:59.96
Edward J Cembal
yeah

15:00.79
Jim Phoenix
Yeah. And then sometimes I’ve ah done quicker too. And usually the quicker I go, the worse it is. Cause it’s kind of like you just rushing and you’re, if you’re rushing, you forget things like, Oh shit, this guy.

15:09.21
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

15:14.01
Edward J Cembal
It’s just something that I’m struggling with right now is is kind of like how fast I should be producing. um People say it’s six months or a year, and I’m like, I don’t know what six months, that seems tight.

15:20.55
Jim Phoenix
It’s publish your parish like now. Yeah.

15:27.81
Edward J Cembal
But people write it in three.

15:30.58
Jim Phoenix
Yeah.

15:30.67
Edward J Cembal
But to what quality, I’m not sure.

15:31.90
Jim Phoenix
ah That’s one of the thing is like, it’s what’s King’s cycle. It looks like King’s got one every year out, but he’s also Stephen King. And he’s been doing this for like, why was it 40 years now?

15:42.88
Jim Phoenix

50. I don’t even know anymore.

15:43.26
Edward J Cembal
Well, that’s the trick, isn’t it?

15:45.07
Jim Phoenix
So yeah.

15:46.12
Edward J Cembal
He writes 2,000 words minimum a day. Sometimes he gets 4,000, but it’s every single day, seven days a week.

15:51.28
Jim Phoenix
and And it’s also this JOB.

15:52.41
Edward J Cembal
And then when he hands it off to an editor, yeah, yeah. And he knows exactly like he’s he’s got got it locked in.

15:58.41
Jim Phoenix
Yeah, he’s not worried like, how am I gonna market this?

15:58.76
Edward J Cembal
So that’s, that’s realistic.

16:00.73
Jim Phoenix
Like, how the hell do I get a, I need to get an editor? What the hell?

16:04.95
Edward J Cembal
Yeah, he’s set. He’s set.

16:06.29
Jim Phoenix
Cover artist, what? Yeah, it’s more like, which one of these is gonna be a movie or miniseries? Speaking of movie and miniseries, the monsters in our shadows develop for a major motion picture. Is she making this as a feature?

16:18.25
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

16:19.23
Jim Phoenix
Creature feature. I like that.

16:20.72
Edward J Cembal
Yeah. Like a feature future feature. Um, the, uh, yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s often in being shipped and shopped. Uh, right now we’ve got a script that I co-wrote.

16:30.72
Jim Phoenix
Cool.

16:30.99
Edward J Cembal
Um, and, uh, yeah, it’s on its way. It goes being some exciting announcements and studios and potential actors that I can’t unfortunately say just yet, but pretty exciting.

16:39.01
Jim Phoenix
Oh, hey, no worries when it comes. I can’t wait. um I mean, I do ask for an advanced copy or a screener or at least, ah you know, I don’t have graph ah DVD or, you know, a VHS.

16:53.39
Edward J Cembal
You’ve got it. Yeah, you’ve got it.

16:54.68
Jim Phoenix
Do you still do Betamax? Do one of those.

16:56.80
Edward J Cembal
We’ll do that. Yeah. I’ll, I’ll, we’ll get it on a VHS and I’ll send it over to you.

17:01.01
Jim Phoenix
It will burn like $12,000 to burn on one VHS tape.

17:04.54
Edward J Cembal
Just rewind it. Yeah.

17:05.83
Jim Phoenix
Yeah. Oh, I can’t do that.

17:06.85
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

17:08.69
Jim Phoenix
I need infinite. So for those of you who are like, what the hell’s a VHS or a Betamax?

17:11.04
Edward J Cembal
Right.

17:13.26
Jim Phoenix
Well, way back when. That’s what we used. Laser disc came. No, that’s great. I know you said story. I’m like, wait a minute. I’ll say you’re doing the screenwriting thing.

17:24.86
Jim Phoenix
Did you find the screenwriting books also helped your writing for novels?

17:31.00
Edward J Cembal
Very much so. They’re almost one for one.

17:34.36
Jim Phoenix
Right. And I think that’s very underlooked in some of the author classes, like, oh, no, novel writing, like, no, story structure is still story structure.

17:43.78
Edward J Cembal
Yeah, it is. I think script writing is is so tight and it removes all the wonderful fluff and metaphor and and all that.

17:48.80
Jim Phoenix
Yeah.

17:51.46
Jim Phoenix
Right.

17:53.50
Edward J Cembal
So when you’re you when you’re writing the script, it’s really just the bare bones direction. Actor walks across the room with you know whatever.

18:00.27
Jim Phoenix
Yeah.

18:03.60
Edward J Cembal
um And then the dialogue is not so exploratory or expositional as it might be in a novel, which is interesting because you can use dialogue in interesting ways in a novel that kind of tells you where they are, how they’re feeling and that kind of stuff.

18:12.76
Jim Phoenix
Yeah.

18:20.08
Edward J Cembal
When in a script, you’re kind of using the action more on screen visually to do that and you don’t want to be, you know, talking too much in dialogue.

18:24.14
Jim Phoenix
Right.

18:28.17
Edward J Cembal
So that was a tough thing to get over. But otherwise, yeah, I mean, for like Save the Cat specifically and things like that, it is very much, I think, one-to-one with story structure, you know, it’s starting with you know, a goal and then a conflict.

18:41.38
Edward J Cembal
Then there’s the disaster that happens. How do they deal with that?

18:43.54
Jim Phoenix
Right.

18:44.89
Edward J Cembal
And then what are their options after that? And that starts the next scene. You know, I think it’s the same kind of, same kind of thing.

18:50.65
Jim Phoenix
Save the cap like Snyder, right? I think.

18:53.25
Edward J Cembal
Yeah. Yeah.

18:53.91
Jim Phoenix
Yeah. Yeah, I teach. Gosh, I adapted that to teach writing and then they adapted it much better than I did. I’m like, OK, I guess it was a good idea, but they did better as their system.

19:05.49
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

19:07.54
Jim Phoenix
And I think that’s it.

19:07.93
Edward J Cembal
I haven’t read both. Is it the same or, or how did you adapt it from, from script writing to the novels?

19:12.24
Jim Phoenix
I bought, I have the screenplay version of it. And cause I was teaching, God, I forgot where somewhere in Montreal, I was teaching screenplay and I was like, I need something that’s going to be, I mean, I had them read poetics.

19:26.92
Jim Phoenix
Like, I’m like, oh crap, went back too far. Hold on.

19:28.55
Edward J Cembal
Yeah. Yeah.

19:30.08
Jim Phoenix
I was like, Aristotle might be too far for 2020 right now. Let me dial this back. And I was trying to find like a new new way of teaching and I do in the case, I’m like, I don’t know.

19:36.14
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

19:41.07
Jim Phoenix
You know, it made me too thick and like, boom, save the cat. Brilliant. Short. It’s punchy. You can teach the crap out of it will within a semester. You know, i however many weeks it was.

19:50.92
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

19:52.57
Jim Phoenix
And then I was thinking, I need to teach people how to read a book. Like how to actually read a story and just for for different class. And you can do like rising action, falling action and the old like chalk plants. I’m like, well, that’s cool. But if you break it down in like a movie, because people see movies, they don’t read books anymore. Like, OK, you can map this book like a movie. It’d be great. And ah yeah, I made like an outline from Save the Cat for short story and book reading and writing.

20:26.34
Edward J Cembal
Perfect.

20:26.56
Jim Phoenix
And then about a year after that, they came out with like, save the cat for books. I’ve looked at the inside a bit. I know it’s just like, Oh, is this is like a lot more examples. Let’s just like save the cat for screenwriting, but for books, they went better off it.

20:37.43
Edward J Cembal
All right.

20:41.24
Jim Phoenix
But so you’re doing say the cat you’re doing, you said story. Who else would you said?

20:45.88
Edward J Cembal
Yeah. rob orke I mean, uh, and the Stephen King on writing, I think, uh, yeah, honestly, uh,

20:46.90
Jim Phoenix
Oh, I’m writing. Yes.

20:55.48
Edward J Cembal
I think the best education for writing is is is reading like a wide breadth of of material and genre and authors and different backgrounds and and different lives.

20:59.02
Jim Phoenix
Yeah.

21:06.94
Edward J Cembal
And that kind of, I think, if anything, is the best education, at least for me. I don’t know about you, but it meant makes me a slow reader. because I’m constantly analyzing something.

21:15.51
Jim Phoenix
it Right.

21:17.16
Edward J Cembal
I’ll feel something in a book and I’m like, wait, why did I feel that? And then I went back, you know, three or four pages and kind of ramp back up into that and be like, oh, I see what they did. This is amazing. Or, you know, you get swept up in something and you finish it quickly and you read reread it.

21:29.78
Edward J Cembal
I just reread Misery. I’m stuck talking about Kang.

21:32.02
Jim Phoenix
Wow.

21:33.75
Edward J Cembal
And it’s funny because it’s it’s almost the ramblings of ah ah a man in that situation, but still like the use of of that as a metaphor and the way that they you know rise the action, create tension, let it go, where that’s happening is really interesting.

21:52.14
Edward J Cembal
So I think just you know reading with intent I would say is probably the best education for writing.

21:58.76
Jim Phoenix
I think you’re right. I think

22:00.50
Edward J Cembal
or a brilliant teacher like yourself

22:02.85
Jim Phoenix
Well, yeah, that’s, that’s part of it.

22:03.56
Edward J Cembal
but also reading

22:06.53
Jim Phoenix
It’s a lot of the places where you are doing training on the job. You were actually doing the job. You’re doing parts of the job and that’s how you learn.

22:18.41
Jim Phoenix
And for writing, it’s the reading part that has to come first.

22:18.88
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

22:23.00
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

22:23.48
Jim Phoenix
You have to be a good reader.

22:23.88
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

22:24.64
Jim Phoenix
You, you have to consume, you have to then understand why Stephen King did the sentence this way instead of that way. You know, how long are, so like rhythm is so important.

22:35.80
Jim Phoenix
How long are sentence, how short are they now?

22:35.91
Edward J Cembal
Yeah. Yeah.

22:38.49
Jim Phoenix
Where’s the flow of the page take you?

22:38.85
Edward J Cembal
Rhythm.

22:39.77
Jim Phoenix
Whatever it’s going to be. And you can only really get that through reading and yeah.

22:44.18
Edward J Cembal
Yeah, and then practicing that on your own, you know, like at least at least one for one, as much as you read, maybe you should be writing. You definitely shouldn’t be only writing, you definitely shouldn’t only be reading.

22:53.14
Jim Phoenix
Correct.

22:53.26
Edward J Cembal
You definitely have to do both. You mentioned, um yeah, you mentioned rhythm.

22:54.76
Jim Phoenix
You can’t be stuck in research.

22:58.35
Edward J Cembal
And I don’t know if you’re a big fan of music or if you play any instruments, but um for me, it’s very much like writing or composing music.

23:07.08
Jim Phoenix
Cool.

23:08.02
Edward J Cembal
It really feels like you’re, you know, you’re writing the verse and you’re trying to like punch the chorus and you’re getting into the next verse, you want to bridge in there, that kind of thing.

23:09.03
Jim Phoenix
Yeah.

23:15.82
Edward J Cembal
It’s funny how art has so many parallels.

23:18.80
Jim Phoenix
Absolutely. And I, I love music and that’s, I just hit my mic and I think that’s kind of why when I read something and the rhythm is wrong, it’s just chalk.

23:29.76
Jim Phoenix
It’s this nails on a chalkboard for me. I’m like, Oh, this is great pros.

23:31.86
Edward J Cembal
Where are we?

23:34.94
Jim Phoenix
The rhythm sucks. You know, I just can’t read any more of this. I just like, no, you start running away. So that’s, that’s part of it. And and being a writer is sometimes. Okay. So you sent this manuscript out to an editor. Did they chop it or they just do the tightening or what?

23:54.52
Edward J Cembal
is It’s funny because i I sent it off to him and it came back and it was, eight it’s I mean, you’ve you’ve experienced this, but it was the same thing.

24:08.06
Edward J Cembal
But it it was like, I guess, slightly tightened and a couple of things were were adjusted.

24:11.54
Jim Phoenix
Yeah.

24:14.53
Edward J Cembal
But I think this is just a testament to how Andrew Lowe was the editor. He was a great editor and he just He didn’t change my voice at all. He didn’t change anything. He just tightened things up.

24:25.55
Edward J Cembal
And it read like me. It felt like me. Everything was still in the same spot. And it was me, but just, again, like you mentioned, just a little bit tighter. In the last novel, I sent it off to another editor.

24:35.12
Jim Phoenix
Yeah.

24:38.78
Edward J Cembal
And ah they changed it up drastically. And I was like, i this doesn’t read like me at all.

24:44.69
Jim Phoenix
Hmm, that’s weird.

24:45.86
Edward J Cembal
And I i i didn’t use them again. but

24:49.85
Jim Phoenix
It’s it a personal relationship.

24:50.19
Edward J Cembal
Yeah, I think a testament to a good editor is just tightening.

24:52.36
Jim Phoenix
Yeah, no, it’s’s it’s a personal relationship.

24:52.78
Edward J Cembal
Yeah, yeah, there’s there’s that too. Yeah.

24:55.05
Jim Phoenix
It really is.

24:55.42
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

24:56.18
Jim Phoenix
And people don’t, when I’m looking at some sites like, I’ll be this editor, I’m like, well, no, if I, you know, if I tell you a dick joke and you blush, I’m like, oh, you can’t read none of my stuff now.

24:56.63
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

25:09.04
Jim Phoenix
Like, I’m sorry.

25:09.15
Edward J Cembal
Yeah, just you wait.

25:09.56
Jim Phoenix
Like if a dick joke makes you blush. My, my, yeah, and ain’t gonna work.

25:15.18
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

25:16.40
Jim Phoenix
So, right.

25:16.86
Edward J Cembal
Yeah, you can see that in some novels too. I was reading King Fisher last night and there’s in the hollow places, you can tell it’s edited differently than like a sorcerer comes to call. And it’s almost like there’s there’s like, almost like ah letting her like speak true to herself a bit more in one than the other.

25:41.51
Edward J Cembal
At least that that was my interpretation. It felt like she was really more on the page, if that makes sense, then then tightened up. But yeah, that’s that’s always interesting is the role of an editor and how much they’re in the story and how much they’re getting out of the way.

25:56.10
Jim Phoenix
Yeah, and that’s part of, okay, I’m from, this is me showing up. I don’t know, I’m really showing up. I’m from SUNY Binghamton. We are known for turning down Raymond Carver. Like, oh, we don’t want Raymond Carver coming, teaching for us.

26:08.00
Edward J Cembal
Come on.

26:10.34
Jim Phoenix
That would be horrifically good for us. But there was like the whole LISH thing where beginners versus what we talk about when we talk about love, same story, but one’s very heavily edited for minimalism for LISH, by LISH I should say.

26:25.01
Jim Phoenix
And it drove Carver. Well, it fails. Spoiler Carver’s dead, but it drove him. We believe to drink even more because Carver wasn’t writing to be minimalist. He was writing his stories and let’s just like edited the shit out of it. But those edited the shit out of stories became super popular.

26:46.78
Jim Phoenix
And so you you have that where even an editor can be beneficial for you in the long run.

26:47.48
Edward J Cembal
yeah

26:51.98
Jim Phoenix
It’s kind of like it hurts because it’s not your voice.

26:56.21
Edward J Cembal
it Oh, so there’s an ego to get out of the way there.

26:56.91
Jim Phoenix
And sometimes it’s just hurts because it’s not your voice and it’s not good. Yeah.

27:00.88
Edward J Cembal
Right.

27:02.97
Jim Phoenix
And yeah.

27:03.08
Edward J Cembal
I wonder if what we talk about when we talk about love was heavily edited or more himself.

27:13.38
Jim Phoenix
It’s a side by side and it’s actually a different story. I’m going to read a side by side. It’s like, Oh, it’s, it’s so bizarre. And then this one, then go back to you have a book that you started, you finished, you looked at and said, Nope, you put it in the kill box. Do you ever think about coming back to that one?

27:34.57
Edward J Cembal
Yeah, I do.

27:36.50
Jim Phoenix
Okay.

27:36.74
Edward J Cembal
I don’t think I was equipped to write that one. I think I was biting off more than I could chew. It’s a different genre too, but ah that one’s that one’s on the table.

27:47.23
Jim Phoenix
There you go. and And that comes back.

27:47.97
Edward J Cembal
It could come back, but then there’s so many others.

27:49.25
Jim Phoenix
Yeah.

27:49.65
Edward J Cembal
Like it it kind of like the idea bank is kind of overflowing. So I’m trying to pick the best ones next. And unfortunately it takes a while to write a novel. So by the time you finish this one, you’ve got, you know, 10 more ideas and then

28:02.91
Jim Phoenix
Right.

28:04.64
Edward J Cembal
Um, there is the concept for anybody who read the monsters in our shadows or who will read the monsters in our shadows, a, um, potential novella, uh, specifically for Zoe story that I’m starting to workshop.

28:15.95
Jim Phoenix
Oh, yes.

28:17.74
Edward J Cembal
And if anybody wants to read it, maybe, um, then I’ll, I’ll buckle down to get that one out next, but yeah.

28:22.42
Jim Phoenix
Absolutely. I do read it and put it on beta max if it comes out as a film

28:25.24
Edward J Cembal
Okay. There you go.

28:27.39
Jim Phoenix
ah that

28:27.57
Edward J Cembal
Exactly.

28:28.43
Jim Phoenix
No, for those who did not have the Monsters in Our Shadows, again, it’s on, ah I mean, it’s blowing up Amazon right now.

28:28.56
Edward J Cembal
Exactly.

28:37.19
Jim Phoenix
Goodreads has got a bazillion ratings. So, get it, read it. And for the first two people who slide in my DMs, we’re gonna get you the ebook version of Monsters in Our Shadows by Edward J.

28:50.24
Jim Phoenix
Assemble, C-E-M-B-A-L. Come DMS, first two get it, bam, you’re welcome readers. now Now, I would say this, from ah there’s a comedian, I guess, friend of mine, I don’t know, Aquinas, nowadays. Pete Corielli said, there’s no thing no such thing as a bad joke. It’s just a joke you’re not strong enough to tell you yet. And I think that applies to writing. That first book wasn’t a bad book that you killed. It just was a book that you weren’t strong enough as a writer yet.

29:21.21
Edward J Cembal
Yeah, I think so.

29:21.27
Jim Phoenix
And you’re getting, especially with monsters in our shadows, if it’s anything, what you’re, if your writing goes up from there, my gosh, the sky’s the limit for you.

29:26.87
Edward J Cembal
Okay.

29:29.59
Jim Phoenix
Right. And I think that’s going to be worth coming back to, but is it the genre you want to write in? Cause you said it’s a different genre. ah Are you a genre a specialist?

29:40.07
Jim Phoenix
Are you kind of like branching out in different ones or what?

29:44.11
Edward J Cembal
That’s a good question. the So a lot of the the big five publishers, they they are kind of like talking more about genre than I’m maybe potentially interested in, but I am aware that there’s there’s a market specific for genre and readers find books around genre.

29:59.96
Jim Phoenix
Right.

30:02.12
Edward J Cembal
So I do want to do a service around around that, at least to the reader. I don’t know if i I would say genre specialist in any way. I don’t think I can help writing horror.

30:14.15
Edward J Cembal
I don’t think I can help writing things that are kind of dark and like kind of push that line.

30:18.57
Jim Phoenix
Right.

30:18.71
Edward J Cembal
um If it’s dystopian, no the next book I’m writing right now isn’t dystopian at all. But in terms of like the dark and macabre and maybe you know edging on horror there, I don’t think I can help that.

30:31.13
Edward J Cembal
ah secondary genres around that or or primary or tertiary. I don’t know, but I would say always dark and then see what follows.

30:41.24
Jim Phoenix
I love that. Always starting to see what follows. Beautiful, as you said. Now, again, if you want monsters in our shadows by Edward J. Simbel, you can DM us for the first two people to DM the first two. Sorry, supplies are limited. Electrons are busy. E-book, bam. Now, I have to, I have to ask, because I am interested. When you’re writing,

31:09.15
Jim Phoenix
the, we’ll say the possible spin-off, the possible follow-up, right?

31:13.79
Edward J Cembal
On.

31:15.50
Jim Phoenix
Because this is being optioned or developed as a major motion picture, do you now write with that actor or actress in mind?

31:26.93
Edward J Cembal
no

31:28.18
Jim Phoenix
So it’s like, screw it. Why don’t, ships me, but well, this is what I’m doing. That can be adapted later.

31:37.02
Edward J Cembal
Yeah. Yeah.

31:37.61
Jim Phoenix
Okay.

31:37.66
Edward J Cembal
I mean, I think, uh, it’s also, you know, the kind of, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s for the reader and I to, to share in general, uh, who this person might end up being in their heads versus my heads.

31:46.19
Jim Phoenix
Yeah. Good. Good.

31:50.81
Edward J Cembal
And I don’t think, uh, just the way my brain works, the, I don’t think there’s an actor that can necessarily fit so well into everything. Um, the monsters who they have, who they have picked, I mean, I think is perfect, but, um,

31:58.93
Jim Phoenix
Right.

32:05.40
Edward J Cembal
Yeah, no, I don’t write with a particular face or or person or anything in mind. It’s just they kind of come out on the page. If that’s unpretentious, it’s true.

32:14.20
Jim Phoenix
but well no and No, I don’t think it sounds pretentious.

32:15.51
Edward J Cembal
Yeah, like they tell me who they are, you know? Yeah.

32:17.60
Jim Phoenix
Yeah, I think that’s what it should be because if I’ve seen people who will write for a particular actor and A, if the actor passes and they just screwed up, B, you just limited yourself, right?

32:31.41
Jim Phoenix
You just limit it. Like now you you know, quote unquote, know who that actor is. And now you wrote for that. But, and you know, anyone who says, I know this actor, you don’t really, I mean, you might know them, but you don’t really know, and know them.

32:44.58
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

32:45.98
Jim Phoenix
You only see what they want you to see because their, their, their job is to act.

32:46.56
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

32:50.23
Jim Phoenix
Their job is literally to be in public and act like someone else. And you limit yourself as a writer, I think. If you’re like, Oh, I’m going to take this persona.

32:57.04
Edward J Cembal
I definitely agree, especially in novel format.

32:58.87
Jim Phoenix
Yeah.

33:00.67
Edward J Cembal
ah that’s hey it’s such like ah It’s such a ah job of uncovering and like and treasure hunting.

33:01.12
Jim Phoenix
Right.

33:08.42
Edward J Cembal
that I think you really pulled yourself back by doing that.

33:08.46
Jim Phoenix
Right.

33:11.94
Edward J Cembal
Saying that though, we did actually, the co-writer myself did just for the script, had an opportunity where there’s an actor who asked us to write a story for him in a specific format, in in a genre, and as a specific character that he wanted to do, and still even then, I’m not writing with him in mind.

33:27.80
Jim Phoenix
Perfect. Right. Right.

33:36.03
Edward J Cembal
I’m assuming that he’ll be able to ah you know change and form himself to fit this character. Not that it’s that far off for a hard character to play, but um even then, I see the character on the page and not not him.

33:46.65
Jim Phoenix
Right.

33:52.92
Jim Phoenix
That it’s awesome. That’s like the true artistic integrity right there. I love it. Now I know we we need to wrap this up because we will 30 minutes next. If there was advice that you can give the younger version of you about writing, about art, about whatever, what would you do? What would you say?

34:22.29
Edward J Cembal
Probably just keep going. You know?

34:24.73
Jim Phoenix
Nice.

34:26.23
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

34:27.52
Jim Phoenix
Keep going, keep running, keep going, keep keep pushing. I think that’s that’s pretty spot on for a lot of it, especially if you are a writer, it’s a lot of lonely nights and days.

34:31.19
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

34:43.64
Jim Phoenix
you know you don’t

34:44.05
Edward J Cembal
And you’re so unsure about everything.

34:45.88
Jim Phoenix
Yeah, it’s you can go to a movie premiere. It can see people react to it. There’s no book premiere where we’re like, can you know, watch people read for three hours silently.

34:56.34
Edward J Cembal
Yeah, I’m not sure how you are with sharing your work as you go.

34:56.48
Jim Phoenix
You know, like, oh, I’m gonna watch it.

34:59.22
Edward J Cembal
Do you do you share it as you go or do you hold it like tight and then share when it’s done?

35:02.10
Jim Phoenix
ah

35:04.78
Jim Phoenix
Kind of, kind of, kind of. I came through a program where we had writing workshops.

35:06.53
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

35:12.01
Jim Phoenix
And so they would see bits of my book before it came out, but like to the general public, ah fuck oh, I Yeah, ah I think that is,

35:16.93
Edward J Cembal
Okay.

35:22.29
Edward J Cembal
yeah Yeah, I kept the whole thing i kept the whole thing under wraps. I told my wife that I was writing, but she didn’t even know that me and character’s name were the title of the book until I handed it to her.

35:35.14
Edward J Cembal
I told nobody that I was even writing. It was very lonely.

35:40.32
Jim Phoenix
Yeah, I know. I think that’s very stable.

35:41.72
Edward J Cembal
But it was good. I think it served the story. I think I’m going to keep doing that. but yeah

35:47.55
Jim Phoenix
i I can’t imagine that the way.

35:48.09
Edward J Cembal
looking for Looking for confirmation and validation externally, I don’t think is the move.

35:51.51
Jim Phoenix
Oh, all um no, no, that’s like, it’s like so antithetical.

35:55.15
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

35:57.17
Jim Phoenix
Like, Oh, no, oh du don’t do that.

35:58.79
Edward J Cembal
Yeah, no, no.

35:59.69
Jim Phoenix
Because then you’re starting like,

36:00.06
Edward J Cembal
Yeah, you got to find it in you.

36:01.79
Jim Phoenix
Yeah. What was the, like, uh, you, you get, and they might mean the best. They’ll say like, ah, that’s great. Have you thought about, I don’t know, making them a clown? Like, Oh no, but now that’s all I think of.

36:10.10
Edward J Cembal
ah Yeah. yeah

36:12.11
Jim Phoenix
Like shit’s a bad idea, but that’s the only thing I’m thinking that was making them a fucking clown.

36:16.35
Edward J Cembal
Yeah. Or they’d say something like, you know, oh Oh, I would do this.

36:19.75
Jim Phoenix
Yeah.

36:20.78
Edward J Cembal
And it just, it’s, it’s, it’s just, it might take you, ah it might be a good idea. I’m not sure, but it’s then all of a sudden not 100% you for better or worse.

36:27.75
Jim Phoenix
There’s. Yeah.

36:29.31
Edward J Cembal
I’m not sure.

36:29.61
Jim Phoenix
Yeah.

36:30.11
Edward J Cembal
But I do think at least the first draft, I would write that in the dark.

36:30.93
Jim Phoenix
Yeah.

36:34.86
Jim Phoenix
You have to, I agree.

36:36.30
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

36:36.98
Jim Phoenix
I wouldn’t say anything to anyone, man.

36:37.38
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

36:39.04
Jim Phoenix
Not even myself at the time.

36:39.92
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

36:40.12
Jim Phoenix
I don’t know what that I’m writing. oh Oh, I’m doing this?

36:42.19
Edward J Cembal
yeah Just go. Yeah.

36:43.26
Jim Phoenix
today Okay.

36:44.77
Edward J Cembal
Keep going.

36:44.96
Jim Phoenix
Oh man. So I will say this is going to be 2024 when this comes out, December, 2024. What are your plans for 25?

36:56.40
Jim Phoenix
What are your plans for 25?

36:58.27
Edward J Cembal
ah In terms of writing, i’m I’m just going to keep writing. I’m hopefully releasing this next book before May.

37:03.90
Jim Phoenix
Nice. nice

37:06.30
Edward J Cembal
We’ll see. Depends on the interest around it. But yeah, I think I’m going to try to get this next book done. I’ve got short stories that I’m i’m kind of just but i putting together and will probably release as a multiple short stories in a book.

37:22.23
Edward J Cembal
I’m not sure when. It could be a few years. It could be next year. I don’t know yet, but that’s just kind of like if I need a break from the main story, I’d go and write like a legend short story and then collect those over the years.

37:29.32
Jim Phoenix
Nice. That’s decent. Yeah, it recites your brain a bit.

37:34.84
Edward J Cembal
ah yeah mean i Yeah, for sure. And just kind of like play around with other characters and other scenarios. But I think, yeah, I’m just going to write this next book, try to release it this year and then get the next one and keep going.

37:48.13
Jim Phoenix
Well that is…

37:48.38
Edward J Cembal
That’s my advice for my future, my current self actually too.

37:52.36
Jim Phoenix
I love it. It’s a vice all around. I think just keep going. that I think that’s the the main thing. And if you want monsters in our shadows by Edward J. Simba, C-E-M-B-A-L, you can go to Amazon or you can just DM me.

38:05.94
Jim Phoenix
One free copy for two people, boom, ebook, donezo. And I have to say, we talked about a lot and I dig it. I always love author talks because it’s like shooting a shit, talking shop and stuff like that.

38:14.66
Edward J Cembal
oh yeah

38:17.61
Jim Phoenix
and

38:18.68
Edward J Cembal
Hell yeah.

38:18.91
Jim Phoenix
I, I love the book, man. The monsters in our shadows. I read it. I couldn’t put it down, which is weird. Cause I had to go through a security at an airport and like, but that’s, I’m like, no, I can’t man. It’s coming with me.

38:29.80
Edward J Cembal
Hold on.

38:29.99
Jim Phoenix
And, uh, it’s like I got beaten down an airport somewhere for it, but hey it was worth it.

38:31.75
Edward J Cembal
I appreciate that. Thank you. Wow. For me?

38:35.64
Jim Phoenix
It was worth it. Yeah.

38:36.40
Edward J Cembal
Thank you.

38:36.73
Jim Phoenix
Yeah. yeah Like, uh, like it’s not a piece of metal.

38:37.53
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

38:39.52
Jim Phoenix
Don’t worry. I, I can’t say. i I can say I look for the next one. There you go. I think all the reviews, like just one says just while, I think that’s pretty accurate from John Kelly.

38:48.30
Edward J Cembal
I appreciate that.

38:52.93
Edward J Cembal
I appreciate that. Thank you.

38:53.99
Jim Phoenix
Yeah.

38:54.42
Edward J Cembal
It’s also, if I can throw in, uh, uh, some self-promotion too, it’s available in to go, uh, Barnes and Noble water stones.

38:58.88
Jim Phoenix
Go for it.

39:03.50
Edward J Cembal
Again, your local bookstore, if it’s not there, ask.

39:06.43
Jim Phoenix
Ask, ask. that’s It’s exactly, people are like, ah why can’t I find at my local ask for it?

39:12.48
Edward J Cembal
Yeah.

39:13.20
Jim Phoenix
They want to buy you the books that you want to buy.

39:13.27
Edward J Cembal
Yeah, definitely.

39:16.38
Jim Phoenix
They need to know it.

39:16.44
Edward J Cembal
Yeah. Right.

39:18.44
Jim Phoenix
Just ask. Libraries too. Ask for your library.

39:21.23
Edward J Cembal
Yep. Yep. It’s around.

39:23.09
Jim Phoenix
Absolutely.

39:23.92
Edward J Cembal
It’s around.

39:24.82
Jim Phoenix
Yep. Very cool. Well, thank you so much for coming and behalf of myself and Edward J. Sembel. I like to say this has been a great season. Thanks everyone for streaming into what’s c cracking and our interviews.

39:37.65
Jim Phoenix
We got more coming up next year. Bye y’all. Thanks again, buddy.

39:42.62
Edward J Cembal
Thanks.